How did you get into tech?

I have always been interested in games and played games since I was young. My first game was Mario Kart 64 on the Nintendo 64 when I was about six years old.

We had just bought a new house, so my cousins came from out of town and between the new console and the new home, it felt like a very big deal.

Initially, I thought gaming wouldn’t’ be something I could enjoy because up until that point, I was taught video games and technical things were for boys. All night long, I watched my older brother and my male cousins battle it out on racetrack after racetrack, longing to try it too. He tried to get me to play, but I refused. As far as I knew, video games were for boys.

The following day, however, I woke up early and snuck downstairs to try out the N64 for myself when no was looking or could tell me otherwise. It was not long before I was beating the AI. After some practice, I wound up winning my older brother and cousins. It may seem small, but those little wins helped shift my perspective in a dramatic way. Having that experience showed me that anybody could play – no matter how young you are or how you identify. It showed me that gaming was for everyone. . And I took a lot of those learnings as I grew older and decided to go into Tech. Anybody who has a passion for or an interest in tech can pursue it. It does not matter what gender or race you are. As long as you have a passion for it and are eager to develop the skills, you could be great at it. This was my first foray into the world of interactive digital media in gaming and ignited my interest in games.

In time, I went to the University of Waterloo for a degree in Professional Communications, Rhetoric, and Business, which provided a stellar co-op program that allowed me to explore the field of digital media. During my third year at University, I landed an internship at Microsoft Canada’s Xbox Digital Marketing team. I immediately fell in love with it. I felt like all the pieces of my life were coming together. My interest in digital marketing/tech and communications, combined with my passion for gaming, coalesced into this amazing career.

I did not want to leave after my co-op, so I began working at Microsoft Canada full time even before I graduated from the University and continued to work there for another year after graduation. My mentor and manager at the time, Karina Vivas, was very involved in my career growth, saw my passion, and encouraged me to consider pursuing a career in Game Development.

Around the same time, the Ubisoft Graduate program–​​an international program designed as a career accelerator program in the game industry–was accepting a new cohort. I applied and was accepted. In 2018, I joined Ubisoft Toronto as a Production Coordinator and went on to become a Production Manager and a First Assistant Director. I knew my passion in gaming was in producing narrative-driven games and in October 2021, I decided I was ready to take the next step in my career to become a Narrative and Realization Producer in the at The Coalition, the studio known for the Gears of War Franchise.

How did your early exposure to gaming shape your desire to pursue a career in technology? 

I think it played a pivotal role. There is a common misconception that a tech career requires one to have a technical background. When really what was most impactful for me was how creative the industry is.

When I first got into gaming as a child, apart from the creative pursuit, I enjoyed the art, music, and animation. I also realized that I could control the characters on the screen with my inputs. It was different from reading a book or seeing a movie. I could see my inputs and interactions reflected on the screen. Seeing that as a kid made me realize that if I get into tech, I could have an even greater influence on how these games are created. I could have a monumental effect and impact on the stories we tell our future generations, and I could make games that cater more to a wider and more diverse audience. Being able to see that at a young age was significant to me.

Several of the data we gathered in our research indicate that black women are underrepresented in the tech sector. Is this something that resonates with you?

There is definitely an under-representation of black women in tech. It is even harder to find women working in game development. I think the reason for the under-representation is twofold. There are often systemic barriers to entry in that the black community is hardly aware of the available programs, scholarships, and career opportunities in tech. Also, there are historical ideals among the black community about careers desirable for women and the careers they should aspire to. I did not know what the roles of a Producer, a Program Manager, or a Technical Marketer were when I was young. These career paths were never presented to me. This intersectionality of being black and a woman can act as a perpetual barrier to entry to a room many of us only find out exist by mere happenstance.

When you don’t see a lot of black women in the field, you tend to think that’s something that you won’t be able to do or see much progress in. When we do not see ourselves adequately reflected in space, we think we might need to become another kind of person to qualify for being there.

For those of us who are already in tech, we do have a responsibility in the way we recruit, in the way we talk about the industry, to make sure we’re reaching outside our social circles or what we consider the norm for recruiting. It is important to demonstrate that this is an industry that needs black women and their voices because that is the only way we will be able to tell diverse stories. Although we are certainly making progress in terms of diversity and inclusion, I still believe that we have a long way to go. to go in ensuring that we have a parity of black women in the tech sector.

Compared with when you got into the industry, would you say things have been getting better? 

I think so. Since I’ve been in the industry, the landscape for recruiting young talent has changed significantly. We still have a long way to go, and even more so in gaming, but I’ have seen initiatives in place that bring studios from across Canada together to learn more about how to network and recruit diverse talent, which I think is an excellent first step. I believe that we can do more by creating more inclusive spaces, reaching out to surrounding communities, and engaging in active listening. I think that the dynamic in our industry will begin to shift when we can reach outside what is comfortable. When something is not familiar, we get uncomfortable. But I think that we need to grow to become comfortable in our discomfort to ensure we are making space for those different perspectives that we otherwise wouldn’t know about.

When we talk about the representation of black people, how much of an issue is it with not having the right talent compared with these systemic barriers? Do you think there is black talent out there and black talent that is not being harnessed right now? 

Whenever we hear the word tech, we tend to think of coding, but in reality, there are so many talented black men and women who can pursue successful careers in tech if only we would emphasize the several other career paths within the sector. There may be a shortage of black talent, but there is also a gap in the way we recruit them and showcase what roles and opportunities are available. I also think there are systemic barriers to entry.

While I was in Toronto, I met so many black youths who were interested in tech but could not figure out how to get their foot in the door. We need to educate the black community about how to get into the tech industry. I think that is why initiatives like Black Kids Code (Girls) are so important because they are giving black youth early exposure to the tech industry. We must do more in terms of educating the black community on what it means to be in tech, and on the diverse roles in the industry. 

Specific to gaming, the industry has been used to telling a one-sided story in the past. It would most commonly be from the non-black perspective or the non-person of colour perspective. If we want to attract and retain black talent, we have to be willing to tell diverse stories. When you see yourself reflected on a screen, you feel more connected to the characters, you want to be engaged, and want to create something similar.

In your experience, how has the tech sector fared in retaining black talent? Are there forces within the sector that tends to push black talent or black women out? 

In my opinion, the biggest challenge facing the sector is recruiting black women. In studios where I have worked, I have been one of two or three black women. I would say that retention is not the biggest issue. We are still on the first hurdle of getting black women into the industry, and I would like to hope that once we have managed to do that effectively, we will create spaces and communities where black women will feel that they can pursue long-term careers in the industry. 

There is a Black community at Microsoft, and within gaming, and we also have a black community at Xbox which connects people from all of Microsoft together. When you look at that community, you can see many more Black people within tech, but the numbers reduce drastically when you look at North America, particularly Canada.

There is currently a push for diversity, equity, and inclusion in the tech space, but tech organizations must be willing to have tough conversations, not just hiring black women to check the boxes. We want to be able to say that we recognize black women for the unique perspectives, talents, and skills they bring to the table. If we can do that as an industry successfully, that will help us retain black women in tech.

Regarding the under-representation of black women in tech, do you think it is more a gender issue than a race issue?

It is a black women’s issue. It is the intersectionality of being black and being a woman. From my experience, there are a lot of white women in the tech industry. I have worked with several incredible women in tech; however, I’ve never had a black female mentor. The industry is still dominated by men, and we need to make it equitable; however, among women and black women, the numbers are very different.

I had the privilege to be mentored by so many amazing women during my time at Microsoft Marketing, Ubisoft, and now Xbox Game Studios. All of them have been women, but none of them have been black women. Several initiatives or panels celebrate women in technology, but there are few initiatives for black women. I think a lot of that has to do with us seeing women as one big umbrella group, and so when one woman is represented, we think all women are represented. To an extent that’s partially true, however, it’s important to recognize that black women have a different cultural experience, a different historical experience, and a different perspective. 

It’s great that we’ve made progress in increasing the number of women in tech, but I think we still have a long way to go, especially in increasing the number of black women in tech. How can we ignore the fact that sometimes there are so few of us that we can’t even form our employee resource groups? Or that we rarely see black women on tech flyers, billboards, and games? How can we ignore the fact that we’ve only recently started seeing our hair textures reflected in games? Some things are specific to getting women into the industry, but other things are very specific to black women experience, and those things are still underserved. 

What motivated you to get involved with Black Kids Code (Girls)?

To encourage and inspire blacks of all ages to feel that they have a place in tech, regardless of their age. Growing up, I didn’t have much information about technology. Even at 15, I could not have told you whether I was interested in coding was because it was not something that was talked about much. I want black girls to have a different experience.

Our monthly Black Kids Code (Girls) workshops are all run, supervised, and instructed by black women. We want black girls to see that black women are at the forefront of these initiatives, have successful careers, and are giving back to the community. Our goal is to let them know that this is something they can do too, that it isn’t impossible, but within reach, easy, and fun.

What challenges have you come across concerning working with the black community for trying to get Black Girls to code? 

The first is parental influence/interest. I know this firsthand as a child of immigrants. My parents were very brave to come to Canada in the 1980s. It was a desire to provide a better life for their children, and I think immigrants and blacks want the same thing. We want to see our children succeed, so what do we do? We tell our kids to be a doctor, a lawyer, or a teacher. One challenge is to get parents to see that a tech career is not only forward-thinking (because many of the roles that will be available in the next 10, 20, and 30 years will be tech-based, requiring some sort of digital literacy to be able to do the job), but also very stable and makes for a successful career.  

Another challenge we face is that in the black community, tech is still perceived as something for only boys. Black Boys Code has gained a great deal of momentum, and we want to make sure we have black boys who are coding, but Black Kids Code (Girls) is relatively new. We need to stop questioning whether tech and coding is for girls and realize that we can use it to empower girls in in the black community.

I work in Game Development, where 50% of users are girls. Stereotypes of gamers being just boys are a thing of the past. Within the black community, we have some work to do to showcase that there are black women in tech. Our narrative needs to change from “this is not something black women can do” to “this is something black women can excel at”. Parents must know their daughters can succeed in the tech industry and their voices are essential. It is the only way to increase numbers and change the face of the industry. If we tell black girls that tech is for boys, they won’t pursue it. Although they may stumble upon it on their own, we want to make sure that we are being intentional and piquing their interest and passion as early as possible.

Can you speak to some of the successes you’ve recorded so far in your work with Black Kids Code (Girls)? Are there any shifts within the black community?  

We have only been in operation since November of 2021, so we are still relatively new. However, the number of workshop participants has increased substantially. I live in Vancouver, where there’s a lower percentage of black people than you’ll find in Toronto, Calgary, or Edmonton but even so, we’ve seen a steep increase in participation rates. In our last workshop, there were about 30 girls in the room (virtual) from ages 8 to 12. We’ve seen more girls join the program, but what I would consider a huge success is that we’re seeing younger girls as well. Parents are reaching out to learn about upcoming workshops and how to get their kids involved, but also, they’re asking how they can help.

One of the biggest success factors for me also is that I’m seeing a lot more parents and older people wanting to get involved. As the older generation becomes more engaged, it opens the doors for younger generation to get more easily involved as well.

Another success is the retention rate. We have students who have been in the program since we began. They are seeing the value and are getting more and more passionate as we progress. There are a lot of new faces every time we hold a workshop, but we also see familiar faces, and that gives me hope that they are falling in love with tech and gaming as I did when I was their age. 

What partnerships do you think are necessary to bring about the shifts that we want to see? Do you see the need for partnerships beyond the black community to drive this transition?  

It would be great to partner with tech companies, game studios. I also think that it would be important to get schools involved. Even though schools do not cater to any specific racial community, we incredibly value allyship in helping to spread the word of our program for the community

Can you think of other specific roles for these allies? Think of an ally, like, say, the government, Women and Gender Equality Canada.  

In the future, I’d like to see is support in creating a certification system or certifications for these girls. In addition to gaining foundational knowledge in Programming and Computational thinking, we also want to help them get their foot in the door. We have girls up to the age of 17 at Black Kids Code (Girls), and that’s the age when they get their high school diplomas, go to university, enter trades, or get jobs. They’ will have an easier time getting their foot in the door if they have credentials that show they are ready for entry-level positions in the tech industry.

Any final thoughts?

While the goal is to have more black women in tech, it doesn’t stop there. The black women who are already in tech are amazing, incredible, and successful, and they have accomplished so much. It’s not only about making sure we have representation in tech but also making sure these women have the right skills and training. I can’t wait to help the next generation and those that are currently trying to get their foot in the door to get into the sector as well.